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Layer Break woes.

 
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neilwilkes
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Joined: 17 Apr 2005
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Location: London, England

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:01 pm    Post subject: Layer Break woes. Reply with quote

Help!

I am having some serious issues with the layer break process.
Whatever I try to do, it ALWAYS seems to go into the break around 48 seconds early on this project.
The weird bit is that the break point is correct - it goes to the start of the correct cell, and after the break is triggered, it is in the right place.
The problem is that the written disc is going into the break too soon, and cutting the last chapter in layer 0 short.
Even weirder, is that if I access the chapter in question from the chapter menu, it plays through correctly and returns to the menu that called it.
So - the thing is going into the layer break too early, but going in to the right place (the start of chapter 14).

WHY?
I followed the instructions to the letter.
I got it wrong first time out, but the second time I set it on the phone with the aid of Matt - and even though the sector number changed from the first failure - it STILL came out wrong.
And worse of all, it triggered to layer 1 at the same point as the last time.

Now, it seems obvious to me that the problem is one of the following:
1 - Pilot Error, and I am getting something badly wrong.
2 - DVD player firmware problem
3 - bugs in the authoring.
I have virtually ruled out number 3, as I created a DVD folder from the authoring application which is not supposed to set any layer breaks at all.

This leaves me with options 1 or 2.

I am about to try creating an image from the authoring application, and setting the layer break from within this.
I tried writing to a DVD+R DL disc from this previously, with LB on automatic modes, and guess what - same issue.
The really weird thing is that when I built the first version, the LB was as it should be.
The only differences are this version uses a single, large AVI file instead of 27 individual ones all on the same timeline. I had to drop that method as when it encoded, all the audio drifted out of sync more & more. I believe this is because AC3 files encode to blocks of 1536 samples, and multiple tracks on a single timeline will make the error cumulative.

What info do I need to post to get this sorted out please?
It's driving me nuts - and I am 99.9% certain it is entirely my fault.
I just cannot seem to work out where I am making the error.

Addendum.
The calculated LB, according to the Spreadsheet & the Guide, is determined to be 2059344.
When I have burned the disc, and load it back into GPME and interrogate it from the drive, I get told by GEAR the LB is actually placed at 2092896 - which is a load of BS.

The method was followed precisely.
Details below:
Total Size = 4107184 Sectors
Point A = 2053591
Point B = 2074496

VTS_04_4.VOB has the start sector where I need it to be, between 1858453 & 1879357.
The start sector of VTS_04_1.VOB = 195139
(This is the point where I am uncertain I got it right. Did I use the correct offset point? Or should I have used VTS_01_1.VOB, regardless of the actual file the LB should be in)

Anyway, in VTS_04_4.VOB, cell 23 starts at sector 1862400.
entering this into the calculator comes back as 2059339, and this has to be moved forward by 5 sectors, giving me an LB of 2059344.

Close project & IFO Edit.
Go to preferences, and make sure "Ask for Start Sector for Each file" is ticked.
Create new project, browse to files, and enter 645 instead of the default 640 when prompted.
Another odd thing here is that there are no further prompts for start sectors. Is this correct?

Anyway, set the actual LB point where it is entered, and burn to DVD-R DL.
Same old crap all over again.
Chapter 13 cuts off 48 seconds too soon, but the LB is at the start of chapter 14, as it should be.
Play the individual chapter, from it's submenu - and it plays through correctly - so the info is written to disc, but the ****ing LB just triggers too damnedsoon, and I have no idea why.
Wasted so many DL discs on this it's just not funny any more.

Desperate for a solution.
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Tom Vaughan
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Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 380
Location: Contact GEAR Software

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neil.
I'm not sure where you went off track. Make sure you are referring to the latest Layer Break procedure ...
http://www.gearsoftware.com/support/documentation/dvdvideobreakpoint.cfm

Perhaps your spreadsheet got "corrupted" or something... you might want to download a new copy from the above page.

The only 3 values you need to enter into the spreadsheet are...
Total Size = 4107184 Sectors
Start sector of VTS_04_1.VOB = 195139
VTS_04_4.VOB, cell 23 starts at sector 1862400

When I enter these values into the layer break calculator spreadsheet, it tells me that your layer break should be at sector 2,057,539. Since this value does not align with the start of a new ECC block (it doesn't divide evenly by 16), you need to add 13 sectors to your layer break (and to the start of VTS_04_1.VOB, in order to align the start of cell 23 in VTS_04 with the new layer break value. So "ask for startsector" when you reload the VIDEO_TS, and make sure when it asks for the startsector of VTS_04_1.VOB, you enter 195152. Then set your layer break to 2057552, and you should be all set.

Let me know if you have any further trouble.
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neilwilkes
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Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 604
Location: London, England

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom.

Those are the figures I got the first time I tried this, and that didn't work either.
Additionally, I am NOT getting asked for the start sectors of anything at all after the initial one of 640 - this is the only sector that is asked for. Are you sure that it should ask for start sectors for every file - this is not what I am seeing.
No others are offered. Maybe this is what is causing the problem - or else it HAS to be down to the DVD player being used.

If this is indeed the case, then I really don't care any more - as long as the DLT tapes will be written correctly then I can live with the clients QC/Test disc changing to layer 1 early - I will simply tell him that it's a limitation of the media. Odds are high it is - and to be honest, the odds are even higher they won't be able to read a DVD-R DL disc anyway. 1 out of the 4 machines here can't read it correctly. Best chance is a +R DL, and those odds are not good.

The end result is exactly the same - and the disc switches to layer 1 at the same point.

I will try again this morning.
But I do not expect this to work any more than it did the first time, or the second time, or the last time either.
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Tom Vaughan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neil,
It seems that you have helped me discover a bug in GEAR PRO Mastering 7.01. Instead of asking for the startsector of every file, it is only asking for the startsector of the first file. This is making it difficult or impossible to set the layer break correctly. I've notified our developers, and we will need to create a fix for this.

In the meantime, you will need to use version 7.0 to create your project, in order to set the layer break correctly. Please let me know if you don't have 7.0 on your system, and I'll make it available.

I'm sorry for the trouble.
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neilwilkes
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Joined: 17 Apr 2005
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Location: London, England

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom.

No apologies are wanted or necessary.
What matters tome is that
A - I am not going mad, and
B - there is a solution that will enable me to get my project out to the client.

Identifying bugs - this is also good. Once you know about it, it can be fixed.
And I would never have found it unless we needed to write to DVD-R DL.

This is also making me think that the authoring software - EncoreDVD 2.0 - is suffering from the exact same bug, ie not offsetting the VTS files.
I will have to look further into this.

Oh - I sent a PM, as I don't have 7.0 installed right now.
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Tom Vaughan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neil,
I thought we might have a bug... but at the moment, I'm thinking that we don't.

We used to "prompt for startsector" for every file. With version 7.01, this was changed so that you are only prompted for the first file. All subsequent files are loaded with the same offset. As long as the file that contains your layer break is offset by the desired number of sectors, your layer break will be aligned correctly.

I tried a number of DVD-Video images, and at this point, everything appears to be working correctly... at least GEAR is loading the DVD-Video image correctly. I'm not able to test DVD-R DL burning in my office at the moment... I would suggest that you use DVD+R DL if possible.

So, using the values that I described in my first reply, you should be able to make a good disc or master. If a dual-layer recordable DVD doesn't play well in a DVD player, it doesn't necessarily mean that your recording was bad. Many DVD players have trouble playing DVD+R DL or DVD-R DL discs.
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neilwilkes
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Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 604
Location: London, England

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So as long as the correct offset gets entered in for the first start sector, and added to the default 640, all will be okay?
I have tried DVD+R DL - and it made no difference at all. The disc still chops the last chapter of layer 0 short.
All I am really worried about here is that the DLT will be written correctly. As long as the DLT is correct, I really, really don't much care if the written disc is not right. Can you please double confirm the DLT will be right, and the pressed discs will be right. This job has to go for 10,000 copies and I cannot afford it to be wrong - it would probably bankrupt me.
It's strange though, as to why this should be the case - and why the chapter played on it's own is good & plays true yet when played in a playlist, it cops short every single time.

Odd.
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Tom Vaughan
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, exactly... if you enter the correct offset for the first sector, all subsequent files, including the VOB file where the layer break occurs will be offset by the same amount, and the layer break will be correctly aligned.
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neilwilkes
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Joined: 17 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Tom.

I will tell the client that the final, written DLT and pressed discs will be correct then.

Incidentally, there is a bug. And it's a strange one.
I already emailed you the crash report, and I have just reproduced it again.
Load a DL project, set the initial offset, and then change the actual layer break from "Preferences/Options"
As soon as I go to write the disc, I get the "GEAR.exe has encountered an error and needs to close" message I sent to you.

If, however, I then close GEAR and reload it, as long as the layer break is set in "Preferences/Options" to what I need it to be for the project, it will work.

Question is - is there a better place to set this info? The guide says it can be done from the project settings, but it can't. There is no layer break screen there.
Also - what was the original default setting - not that this should matter.

Finally, is the method I am using correct now?
Find LB point
Set LB point in "Options/Preferences"
Create new project
Set offset
Burn.
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